I got my instrument rating at an accelerated school in California.
Overall, I think my instruction went well, and I was very happy with
the results. I passed my checkride in a Piper Lance, and had no
troubles.

There was one part though that never quite made sense to me. My
instructor told me to use a Star or DP for an airport that wasn't the
airport I was flying to, and I genuinely had no idea how she was
selecting which one to use. At the time, I just fudged my way through
that, since my brain was approaching maximum capacity anyway.

Now I'm wanting to start filing and flying out of TKI in the DFW area,
and I have no idea how to determine which procedure I should file, nor
do I even see how the transition will occur from the procedure that is
routing to or from DFW over to a landing at TKI or takeoff from TKI.

Strange that I have this one gap in my training, but it's getting in
my way now. Can any of you clear this up or recommend a good book or
video that makes this process clear? And I don't just want to
understand the process here at TKI I need to know how to apply this
anywhere.

Thanks!
Bill
www.adventurepilot.com

On 10/7/2005 13:27, Bill wrote:

> I got my instrument rating at an accelerated school in California.
> Overall, I think my instruction went well, and I was very happy with
> the results. I passed my checkride in a Piper Lance, and had no
> troubles.
>
> There was one part though that never quite made sense to me. My
> instructor told me to use a Star or DP for an airport that wasn't the
> airport I was flying to, and I genuinely had no idea how she was
> selecting which one to use. At the time, I just fudged my way through
> that, since my brain was approaching maximum capacity anyway.

A STAR is a "Standard Terminal Arrival Route". It's purpose is to
get you from the enroute phase of flight into the "terminal" area,
not the airport (the SIAP does that...).

So, STARs will handle multiple airports in the general area. If I
remember correctly, all the airports depicted on the STAR.

In the case of Jeppesen, STARs are included at the beginning of each
airport where they apply (which means a particular STAR may be included
more than once). So, to select a STAR, just go to the set of airport
plates for your destination, and pick one.

I know it's different with the government charts. I think they list all
the STARs at the beginning of the TPP by city, so you just look for the
city which represents your destination, and select the STAR from there.

Of course, including a STAR in your flight plan doesn't mean you're
going to get it...

>
> Now I'm wanting to start filing and flying out of TKI in the DFW area,
> and I have no idea how to determine which procedure I should file, nor
> do I even see how the transition will occur from the procedure that is
> routing to or from DFW over to a landing at TKI or takeoff from TKI.

The DP should get you to fixes that are on various airways. In some cases,
they even provide radar vectors. Have a look again at the DPs for your
airport, and see if you can plug it into your enroute phase.

If your destination is really close to your departure airport, they
may have special (TEC) routes that they prefer to use, so you may
want to talk to local pilots or controllers.

>
> Strange that I have this one gap in my training, but it's getting in
> my way now. Can any of you clear this up or recommend a good book or
> video that makes this process clear? And I don't just want to
> understand the process here at TKI I need to know how to apply this
> anywhere.
>
> Thanks!
> Bill
> www.adventurepilot.com
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

I've been "cheating" when it comes to flight planning by using the
newly-released FlightAware IFR Route finder that displays recently used
IFR routes:

http://flightaware.com/analysis/route.rvt

Try it out by searching from "TKI" to "ABQ" and then it will even
suggest searching the Dallas terminal area to widen your search.

Chip

Bill wrote:
>
> I got my instrument rating at an accelerated school in California.
> Overall, I think my instruction went well, and I was very happy with
> the results. I passed my checkride in a Piper Lance, and had no
> troubles.
>
> There was one part though that never quite made sense to me. My
> instructor told me to use a Star or DP for an airport that wasn't the
> airport I was flying to, and I genuinely had no idea how she was
> selecting which one to use. At the time, I just fudged my way through
> that, since my brain was approaching maximum capacity anyway.
>
> Now I'm wanting to start filing and flying out of TKI in the DFW area,
> and I have no idea how to determine which procedure I should file, nor
> do I even see how the transition will occur from the procedure that is
> routing to or from DFW over to a landing at TKI or takeoff from TKI.
>
> Strange that I have this one gap in my training, but it's getting in
> my way now. Can any of you clear this up or recommend a good book or
> video that makes this process clear? And I don't just want to
> understand the process here at TKI I need to know how to apply this
> anywhere.
>
> Thanks!
> Bill
> www.adventurepilot.com

I fly out of TKI and there's nothing special to flying the DPs or STARs there.
The trick is to find the DPs that are not for jets and that are heading in the
direction that you want.

The DPs are airport specific. The STAR is used just to get you into the
"Terminal Area" which encompasses many airports. Again, pick the one that is
for props and coming generally from the direction you'll be coming from.

As someone else pointed out, DPs and STARs are like a box of chocolates. :)

"Bill" > wrote in message
...
>
> I got my instrument rating at an accelerated school in California.
> Overall, I think my instruction went well, and I was very happy with
> the results. I passed my checkride in a Piper Lance, and had no
> troubles.
>
> There was one part though that never quite made sense to me. My
> instructor told me to use a Star or DP for an airport that wasn't the
> airport I was flying to, and I genuinely had no idea how she was
> selecting which one to use. At the time, I just fudged my way through
> that, since my brain was approaching maximum capacity anyway.
>
> Now I'm wanting to start filing and flying out of TKI in the DFW area,
> and I have no idea how to determine which procedure I should file, nor
> do I even see how the transition will occur from the procedure that is
> routing to or from DFW over to a landing at TKI or takeoff from TKI.
>
> Strange that I have this one gap in my training, but it's getting in
> my way now. Can any of you clear this up or recommend a good book or
> video that makes this process clear? And I don't just want to
> understand the process here at TKI I need to know how to apply this
> anywhere.
>

If you're using NACO charts you can simply check the index of terminal
charts, section B.

"Bill" > wrote in message ...
>I got my instrument rating at an accelerated school in California.
> Overall, I think my instruction went well, and I was very happy with
> the results. I passed my checkride in a Piper Lance, and had no
> troubles.
>
> There was one part though that never quite made sense to me. My
> instructor told me to use a Star or DP for an airport that wasn't the
> airport I was flying to, and I genuinely had no idea how she was
> selecting which one to use. At the time, I just fudged my way through
> that, since my brain was approaching maximum capacity anyway.
>
> Now I'm wanting to start filing and flying out of TKI in the DFW area,
> and I have no idea how to determine which procedure I should file, nor
> do I even see how the transition will occur from the procedure that is
> routing to or from DFW over to a landing at TKI or takeoff from TKI.
>
> Strange that I have this one gap in my training, but it's getting in
> my way now. Can any of you clear this up or recommend a good book or
> video that makes this process clear? And I don't just want to
> understand the process here at TKI I need to know how to apply this
> anywhere.
>
> Thanks!
> Bill
> www.adventurepilot.com
>

ZFW used to have an awesome website that had great information and graphics about traffic flow in the DFW area,
including STAR and DP assignment guidelines. www.zfwartcc.jccbi.gov/ But alas, it seems to have been down for
months now :(

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 17:14:12 -0500, Nick Kliewer
> wrote:

>Bill wrote:
>>
>> I got my instrument rating at an accelerated school in California.
>> Overall, I think my instruction went well, and I was very happy with
>> the results. I passed my checkride in a Piper Lance, and had no
>> troubles.
>>
>> There was one part though that never quite made sense to me. My
>> instructor told me to use a Star or DP for an airport that wasn't the
>> airport I was flying to, and I genuinely had no idea how she was
>> selecting which one to use. At the time, I just fudged my way through
>> that, since my brain was approaching maximum capacity anyway.
>>
>> Now I'm wanting to start filing and flying out of TKI in the DFW area,
>> and I have no idea how to determine which procedure I should file, nor
>> do I even see how the transition will occur from the procedure that is
>> routing to or from DFW over to a landing at TKI or takeoff from TKI.
>>
>> Strange that I have this one gap in my training, but it's getting in
>> my way now. Can any of you clear this up or recommend a good book or
>> video that makes this process clear? And I don't just want to
>> understand the process here at TKI I need to know how to apply this
>> anywhere.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Bill
>> www.adventurepilot.com
>
>I fly out of TKI and there's nothing special to flying the DPs or STARs there.
>The trick is to find the DPs that are not for jets and that are heading in the
>direction that you want.
>
>The DPs are airport specific. The STAR is used just to get you into the
>"Terminal Area" which encompasses many airports. Again, pick the one that is
>for props and coming generally from the direction you'll be coming from.
>
>As someone else pointed out, DPs and STARs are like a box of chocolates. :)

I appreciate your response, and everyone else who has responded as
well. I guess my confusion comes in thinking of the DP like I would
an approach plate, meaning that an approach plate tells me everything
I need in order to navigate, even in the event of complete radio loss.

So, to try to clear this up, can I go into a more specific example?

I'm looking at the Dallas Eight Departure. For argument's sake, let's
assume that my route will take me to the Little Rock VOR. What I
don't understand is how I get from TKI (shown on the DALL8.TTT
departure) to the Little Rock Transition.

Once again, I'm probably making this difficult because I'm thinking in
terms of an approach plate, but other than just seeing that the NOBLY
intersection is the closest to TKI on that transition, what is the
method by which I would decide how to get to that point?

Additionally, what would me clearance look like?

I know I'm really revealing my ignorance here, but I don't like not
knowing how this really should work. I might be able to fudge my way
through it again, but that's not as enjoyable as really knowing the
system.

Thanks,

Bill
www.adventurepilot.com

"Bill" > wrote in message ...

> So, to try to clear this up, can I go into a more specific example?
>
> I'm looking at the Dallas Eight Departure. For argument's sake, let's
> assume that my route will take me to the Little Rock VOR. What I
> don't understand is how I get from TKI (shown on the DALL8.TTT
> departure) to the Little Rock Transition.
>
> Once again, I'm probably making this difficult because I'm thinking in
> terms of an approach plate, but other than just seeing that the NOBLY
> intersection is the closest to TKI on that transition, what is the
> method by which I would decide how to get to that point?
>

First you have to start with the notes. (I only
Dallas 8: "For jets requesting FL180 and above".
Garland 2: "For jets requesting FL 170 and below"
Hubbard 5: "For props requesting FL 230 and below"

So you'll probably be getting Hubbard 5. (This was the type of information that was very nicely summarized and
graphically depicted on that website I mentioned but is now out of service).

When you're going to fly it, you start at the TOP of the textual description: "When entering controlled
airspace, fly assigned heading and altitude to appropriate route". The heading and altitude will be given to
you by the time you are released.

Departure may give you vectors and/or clear you direct NOBLY or ECKEY, etc.

> Additionally, what would me clearance look like?

Lets say you filed KTKI-MONTE-V124-BEGAN-KLIT. (I got this straight from the duats auto-routing).

Clearance Delivery: "N123 cleared to Little Rock via Hubbard 5, Paris Transition, then as filed, climb and
maintain 3000 expect 5000 after 10 minutes, Dep Freq x.xxx, squawk yyyy". (I'm not a controller but thats the
jist of it). Note this overrides your MONTE flight plan, but once to PRX VOR you're "as filed".

Tower: "N123 fly runway heading cleared for takeoff runway 17"
Tower: "N123 contact departure"

Departure: "N123 radar contact turn left 100 intercept Maverick 064 , climb and maintain 9000". Or if you're
/G maybe they will say "N123 radar contact cleared direct ECKEY etc"

>
> I know I'm really revealing my ignorance here, but I don't like not
> knowing how this really should work. I might be able to fudge my way
> through it again, but that's not as enjoyable as really knowing the
> system.
>

Like everything else, with practice it gets a lot easier!

(P.S. There seems to be a charting error on the NACO Dallas 8. The airport is depicted quite south of NOBLY.
As an exercise you might want to locate the appropriate e-mail address and notify NACO of the error-- I have
found them very responsive to such!)

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 14:19:12 GMT, "John Clonts" >
wrote:

>
>"Bill" > wrote in message ...
>
>> So, to try to clear this up, can I go into a more specific example?
>>
>> I'm looking at the Dallas Eight Departure. For argument's sake, let's
>> assume that my route will take me to the Little Rock VOR. What I
>> don't understand is how I get from TKI (shown on the DALL8.TTT
>> departure) to the Little Rock Transition.
>>
>> Once again, I'm probably making this difficult because I'm thinking in
>> terms of an approach plate, but other than just seeing that the NOBLY
>> intersection is the closest to TKI on that transition, what is the
>> method by which I would decide how to get to that point?
>>
>
>First you have to start with the notes. (I only
> Dallas 8: "For jets requesting FL180 and above".
> Garland 2: "For jets requesting FL 170 and below"
> Hubbard 5: "For props requesting FL 230 and below"
>
>So you'll probably be getting Hubbard 5. (This was the type of information that was very nicely summarized and
>graphically depicted on that website I mentioned but is now out of service).
>
>When you're going to fly it, you start at the TOP of the textual description: "When entering controlled
>airspace, fly assigned heading and altitude to appropriate route". The heading and altitude will be given to
>you by the time you are released.
>
>Departure may give you vectors and/or clear you direct NOBLY or ECKEY, etc.
>
>> Additionally, what would me clearance look like?
>
>Lets say you filed KTKI-MONTE-V124-BEGAN-KLIT. (I got this straight from the duats auto-routing).
>
>Clearance Delivery: "N123 cleared to Little Rock via Hubbard 5, Paris Transition, then as filed, climb and
>maintain 3000 expect 5000 after 10 minutes, Dep Freq x.xxx, squawk yyyy". (I'm not a controller but thats the
>jist of it). Note this overrides your MONTE flight plan, but once to PRX VOR you're "as filed".
>
>Tower: "N123 fly runway heading cleared for takeoff runway 17"
>Tower: "N123 contact departure"
>
>Departure: "N123 radar contact turn left 100 intercept Maverick 064 , climb and maintain 9000". Or if you're
>/G maybe they will say "N123 radar contact cleared direct ECKEY etc"
>
>>
>> I know I'm really revealing my ignorance here, but I don't like not
>> knowing how this really should work. I might be able to fudge my way
>> through it again, but that's not as enjoyable as really knowing the
>> system.
>>
>
>Like everything else, with practice it gets a lot easier!
>
>(P.S. There seems to be a charting error on the NACO Dallas 8. The airport is depicted quite south of NOBLY.
>As an exercise you might want to locate the appropriate e-mail address and notify NACO of the error-- I have
>found them very responsive to such!)

Goodness, where do I mail my payment! :)

This is the kind of info that I never got during training. Sure, I
can shoot an approach to minimums no problem, but this was the type of
thing that made me shy from filing.

I appreciate you taking the time to walk me through this a bit. I
suppose I'll spend some time listening to ATC at TKI on a rainy, IMC
day while I clean out the inside of the plane. Sounds like that could
be educational as well.

Thanks again. I'll be back with more questions, and hope to answer a
few along the way as well.

Bill
www.adventurepilot.com

I fly regularly into/out of Denton (DTO). I don't have to worry about the
STAR's & DP's because they will assign you one anyway. I file direct from
FSM to DTO and my clearance from Razorback departure says as filed. Then
while enroute Ft Worth Center will give me a new clearance "Cleared to
Denton via direct SASIE, SASIE2 arrival". Leaving Denton I file Direct to
FSM and get my clearance from regional departure as "cleared to FSM via
enter controlled airspace heading XXX maintain 2000. Expect radar vectors
Texoma8 departure McAllister transition direct then as filed". Denton is a
little deeper under the Class B but I bet if you just file direct you will
get what they want you to have for departures and arrivals. After you get
their preference the first time then file those procedures from then on if
you want, or do as I do and just let them give you clearance. Once you know
file a couple of times you'll know what to expect and it wont be a surprise.
Going into Addison I have even had center ask me which arrival I want ,
JONEZ4 or SASIE2. The first few times you fly a dp/arrival it seems a
little hard but you'll get used to it and it won't be a big deal.


Mark
N28409

"Bill" > wrote in message
...
>I got my instrument rating at an accelerated school in California.
> Overall, I think my instruction went well, and I was very happy with
> the results. I passed my checkride in a Piper Lance, and had no
> troubles.
>
> There was one part though that never quite made sense to me. My
> instructor told me to use a Star or DP for an airport that wasn't the
> airport I was flying to, and I genuinely had no idea how she was
> selecting which one to use. At the time, I just fudged my way through
> that, since my brain was approaching maximum capacity anyway.
>
> Now I'm wanting to start filing and flying out of TKI in the DFW area,
> and I have no idea how to determine which procedure I should file, nor
> do I even see how the transition will occur from the procedure that is
> routing to or from DFW over to a landing at TKI or takeoff from TKI.
>
> Strange that I have this one gap in my training, but it's getting in
> my way now. Can any of you clear this up or recommend a good book or
> video that makes this process clear? And I don't just want to
> understand the process here at TKI I need to know how to apply this
> anywhere.
>
> Thanks!
> Bill
> www.adventurepilot.com
>